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Dingo
Team Daylate
Australia
7818 Posts
Member No: #323 |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 9:29:19 PM
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| quote: | Originally posted by brownp
You should do some reading on the great economist Maynard Keynes, Dingo. They have a statue of him at Cambridge University. His theory (which was taken up by President Roosevelt during the Great Depression) was that the Government should step in during an economic downturn with spending in order to 'prime the pump' and get the economy moving again. And it looks like it worked here with no reccession and only a small rise in unemployment. Our government debt, by the way is only a small proprtion of GDP and far lower than other countries.
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Ive just been doing some reading on Maynard Keynes and yes I agree, sound economics. I havent seen anywhere he suggests waste
Where this style of thought really falls over is where the government of the day gives with one hand and their policy encourages it to be taken with the other. For example the Rudd/Gillard Labor gov have put into process that they hoped will stimulate the economy yet try to bring in an ETS which has instantly put all our energy costs up. We all got hit in the pocket with electricity increases which were directly attributed to the Rudd/Gillard ETS, we didnt get the ETS but still get the increased costs, go figure.
You can not Stimulate the economy with one hand and with the other stiffle it with taxes, the ETS is just a big tax that is designed to make energy too expensive to use, fuel, electricity and gas all rise which flow onto everything we buy, just look at NZ. |
Drive it till the wheels fall off
Cheers Paul
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brownp
Marlin
Australia
477 Posts
Member No: #247 |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 9:39:46 PM
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| The ETS was posponed Dingo and the GFC was given as the reason. Regarding waste - the stimulus packages had to be rolled out quickly if they were to be effective and so some lapses were bound to occur. |
Phil |
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Dingo
Team Daylate
Australia
7818 Posts
Member No: #323 |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:19:39 PM
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LOL thats the official Labor party lines, I didnt think people actually believed them.
Ive heard this as the reason why its been rushed and badly managed, like its a valid excuss for wasting billions of tax payers money. Seriously is it acceptable to waste 1 billion of a 3 billion dollar scheme or 4/5 billion of a 16 billion dollar scheme? We the tax paying public have to pay that back, not the Labor party.
The fact is the ETS was rejected in the senate, they are facts mate 42 to 30 to be exact.
We have Tony Abbott to thank for that, under Malcolm Turnball we would have that tax impossed on us now and this is one of the major reasons Mr Turnball was removed as oposition leader.
Unfortunatly if Labor gets in the greens will have the power to push this through but the greens are even worse than Labors ETS, 40% reduction by 2020, this straight from the greens policy
| quote: | | Australia to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions as soon as is feasible and by no later than 2050 with a minimum of 40% reduction on 1990 levels by 2020. |
Nobody knows exactly how much this will end up costing us but rest assured NZ knows and we will if the Greens have power.
Source, Greens Climate change policy. http://greens.org.au/policies/climate-change-and-energy/climate-change-and-energy |
Drive it till the wheels fall off
Cheers Paul
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brownp
Marlin
Australia
477 Posts
Member No: #247 |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 07:50:25 AM
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| quote: | Originally posted by Dingo
LOL thats the official Labor party lines, I didnt think people actually believed them.
Ive heard this as the reason why its been rushed and badly managed, like its a valid excuss for wasting billions of tax payers money. Seriously is it acceptable to waste 1 billion of a 3 billion dollar scheme or 4/5 billion of a 16 billion dollar scheme? We the tax paying public have to pay that back, not the Labor party. |
If it kept us out of recession and saved thousands of jobs then it's not a waste.
| quote: |
The fact is the ETS was rejected in the senate, they are facts mate 42 to 30 to be exact.
We have Tony Abbott to thank for that, under Malcolm Turnball we would have that tax impossed on us now and this is one of the major reasons Mr Turnball was removed as oposition leader. |
And Labor has delayed it again. They have not gone to the election with a promise to impliment an ETS.
| quote: |
Unfortunatly if Labor gets in the greens will have the power to push this through but the greens are even worse than Labors ETS, 40% reduction by 2020, this straight from the greens policy
| quote: | | Australia to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions as soon as is feasible and by no later than 2050 with a minimum of 40% reduction on 1990 levels by 2020. |
Nobody knows exactly how much this will end up costing us but rest assured NZ knows and we will if the Greens have power. |
Labor won't do anything that will seriously damage the economy or employment. Sure the Greens might have some leverage but it is limited. Where are they going to go, preference the Libs?
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Dingo
Team Daylate
Australia
7818 Posts
Member No: #323 |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 09:43:32 AM
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| quote: | Originally posted by brownp
If it kept us out of recession and saved thousands of jobs then it's not a waste.
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And this is where people seem to be not understanding the word Waste. I fully agree with spending money in order to help the chance the country dosnt go into recession. I still think we as tax payers should get value for money not waste. The whole point is and not many are seeing it is look at how much extra they could have done with the money that has been wasted, 5 or 6 billion dollars would go along way, It shouldnt cost that much extra to roll things out quickly, good management and policy ensures this, Labor have proven they can not manage well. A well thought out policy should not accept 1/4 of its total as waste.
As a side point, our little school has had the safety fence up for about 3 months, they poured the slab 2 weeks ago, how is that quick, sort of blows that out of the water and no there is no site issue that will hold it up, no piers or rocks.
| quote: | | And Labor has delayed it again. They have not gone to the election with a promise to impliment an ETS. |
How can you say they delayed it when they fought tooth and nail to push it through the senate but were rejected. They havent gone to this election with the ETS because they know it was unpopular and was political suicide. Labor dont need to worry about the ETS because they now have the Greens to do their dirty work. Please dont tell me you believe The Greens are giving Labor their preferances for nothing? This is where us Rec anglers will get shafted.
Do your self a favour and look at NZ, the ETS they have is similar to the one Labor was trying to push through.
| quote: | Labor won't do anything that will seriously damage the economy or employment. Sure the Greens might have some leverage but it is limited. Where are they going to go, preference the Libs?
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Hmm The Rudd/Gillard Labor gov start pushing the ETS and the Electricity providers instantly put up electricity buy 20% followed by another huge rise and another is scheduled, this is hammering families.
If you think the Greens will have limited leverage you musnt understand the senate, said respectfully.
Heres how the Senate works. Not much can get done without the senates approval. The senate is our safety net if you like. So if a gov wants to put inplace something that is not really good then the senate can reject it, like they did with the ETS. If Labor get in the Greens will have the balance of power in the senate through Labors preferance deals so they have the power of yes and no. Labor say we want to do xxx but they now have to do a deal with the greens and this is how it will go. If you want to do xxx we want to have more marine parks or if you want to do xxxxxx we want more carbon reduction meaning charging big companies more tax so us the consumers pay more.
Do you remember the Democrats slogan "Keep the *******s honest" that was in the senate.
The ideal set up for the Senate is a good mix of Independants, minor parties, Labor, Libs and Greens so you get a broad reaction and discussion. Unfortunatly under the Labor preferance deal the Greens will now have way too much power, do you seriously think the Greens will act in the best interest of The Australian people and Australian businesses? |
Drive it till the wheels fall off
Cheers Paul
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BIG
Salmon
Australia
31 Posts
Member No: #13073 |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 3:08:45 PM
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People are worries about green = labour and we should base our votes of one aspect of policy.
How about this in the sydney papers
Howes declared in The Sunday Telegraph that the Greens "party is being infiltrated by many whose commitment to the environment is questionable, and who are more focused on turning the Greens into a left-wing, socialist-style party". Earlier, on the The Contrarians program on Sky News, Howes referred to Rhiannon as coming from a family who were "lifelong members of the pro-Stalinist Socialist Party". He went on to warn about the ex-communists and socialists "trying to take over the inner-city branches of the Greens".
Nationals senator Fiona Nash has the third spot on the Coalition's Senate ticket in NSW. Assuming Labor wins three Senate quotas and the Coalition two, the sixth vacancy will likely be contested between Nash and Rhiannon. Here the occasionally soft Coalition types can learn from the tough-minded Howes.
So far, Nash has said little, if anything, about Rhiannon. Sure Rhiannon's resume contains scant material about her radical past. However, the details are set out in Mark Aarons's The Family File, the author's account of his family's long-time membership of the Communist Party of Australia.
Rhiannon is not responsible for the fact she is the daughter of long-time CPA operatives Bill and Freda Brown (no relation to Bob Brown). But she is responsible for continuing the family's tradition as a young adult. In his book, Mark Aarons, the son of Laurie and Carol Aarons, says the Aarons and Brown families tolerated the excesses of communist totalitarianism up until the brutal invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union in 1968. Then the communist movement split. The Aarons family stood up to Moscow but the Brown family adopted the position of continuing Stalinists and formed the Socialist Party of Australia.
Mark Aarons fell out with Rhiannon in the 1970s when, he claims, she refused to condemn the invasion of Czechoslovakia or the shooting of workers by the Polish communist dictatorship. He writes: "I could not conceive of someone of my age and experience supporting Moscow's policies."
Already there is evident tension between the Greens leadership in Canberra and Rhiannon. This is likely to increase if she wins a Senate vacancy. Howes understands the anti-business, anti-jobs agenda of the radical Greens is contrary to Labor's stance. You have to wonder how long it will take the Coalition to wake up to the fact that the best way to defend Nash is to expose Rhiannon's middle-class radicalism.
Gerard Henderson is executive director of The Sydney Institute.
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tiagra1512
Marlin
Australia
314 Posts
Member No: #12732 |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 6:16:35 PM
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| quote: | Originally posted by punkin
Any recreational fisher who bases his vote on how the country is run on a parties fishing policy has different views on the important things in life than i do.
Not that i don't wish for a better fishing future and i think that it won't be improved by marine parks locking out recs, but there's a country out there where we have to earn a livelyhood, educate and protect our children and their health and growth.
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My dad was diagnosed with lung cancer three weeks ago, and my wife yesterday was diagnosed with MS. We have spent considerable time over the last couple of weeks traveling to see specialists, having scans, MRI's etc. because local hospitals do not have the facilities. My wife & I now have to go to Sydney to see a Neurologist because of a lack of
these professionals close by to cope with the local population, and I am talking about from here down to the border and across to Canberra, and Dad has now also got to head to Sydney for a scan for the same reasons. What I need to hear from some of these pollies is that health systems nationwide WILL improve, and quickly.
I realise I have a vested interest in my opinion, but as you say Punkin, these are the real issues for me.
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I reckon five out of four people have trouble with fractions. |
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TommySoftPlastix
Marlin
Australia
537 Posts
Member No: #9467 |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 1:32:39 PM
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| quote: | | [i]Labor won't do anything that will seriously damage the economy or employment. |
I have to take you to task on his, Brownp Here are examples of major Labor policy/plans which will unmistakenly "seriously damage the economy or employment":
- Carbon tax – a massive burden on our economy, making us less competitive; and all individuals will pay for this in higher prices for everything !! S’pose at the Greens suggest the tax is $23/tonne....at Australias reported 600 million tonnes annually, this adds up to a $13.8 Billion tax !!
- National Broadband Network - at $43 Billion (un-funded, mind you) there is no business case and no representation to the Australian people with regard to : likely take-up, costs for use, or benefits.
- Mining Tax – this has already had an adverse effect on future investment into the economy, and will directly impact jobs. Resources are one of our nation’s main competitive advantage internationally, and to penalise ourselves for that is surely ludicrous if not masochistic. (ask NZ how they like it)
- Eradication of coal-fired power stations – Labour intend to shut down coal-fired generators and replace them with “renewable” generation. Penny Wong did not even know how much it would cost for one power station in Victoria, let alone many. And the greens want to eliminate ALL coal-fired generation.....given they don’t support nuclear electricity generation then I have no idea how they intend to replace the enormous volume of base-load electricity. If they did have a plan and this was costed (let alone practically possible), I’m sure we could all expect our electricity bills to go up by thousands of percent !
I'm disgusted by the waste of $billions by the present government, and with the amount of undelivered promises I don’t even know how even staunch Labor voters could not be disillusioned with them.
The Labor/Greens preferences deal is a major concern to me should the Greens hold the balance of power in the senate, and my view is that this should be of major concern to anyone who values sound economic management of our nation, let alone the right to go fishing ! |
Edited by - TommySoftPlastix on 16 Aug 2010 1:34:34 PM |
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Neil
SportsFish
Australia
3807 Posts
Member No: #1 |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 7:07:14 PM
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I find; if not amusing at least simplistic to believe that the Labour Government spending on the stimulus can be directly related to Australia being kept out of recession
Im sorry to say and without flaming anyone but this is just a very “Party Lines” statement.
The fact is that the previous 8 years of the Liberal/National government are the reason for it plain and simple.
The libs left office after 8 years with
1. Paying back the entire National debt… FACT…Undisputable..
2. After paying back this debt they were able to bank $20 Billion..FACT…Undisputable..
3. Enhanced laws (Keating/Hawke era) to strengthen fiscal governance…FACT.. Uudisputable…
In 3 short years The Rudd/Gillard Government have spent that $20 billion in the bank…..wiped out the Credit card and zapped another whopping $100 BILLION on the never never!!!
Does anyone really know just how much long term damage this has caused to our country??
My kids kids will still be paying for it unless something is done NOW! Doesn’t anyone care that they will be paying this off for many years?
And for what??
Pink Batts that is nothing but criminal.
Gillard Education rip off..
The new cash for clunkers cars.. etc etc
I won’t even bore you with the huge list of blunders and public waste of money…
My God is everyone accepting that we have to have debt?
NSW is broke and corrupt! Labour Government..
Qld is nearly broke & selling off assets to pay the bills (in a boom period) Labor Government..
Here is a link that you might find scary!!
http://www.debtclock.com.au/
And if you think that isn’t right there here the our own Governments website
The Australian Office of Financial Management (AOFM) is a specialist Australian Government agency responsible for management of Australian Government debt.
http://www.aofm.gov.au/
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Dingo
Team Daylate
Australia
7818 Posts
Member No: #323 |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 7:15:23 PM
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| quote: | Originally posted by TommySoftPlastix
I'm disgusted by the waste of $billions by the present government, and with the amount of undelivered promises I don’t even know how even staunch Labor voters could not be disillusioned with them.
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Thats because they are Staunch Labor voters. A staunch Labor voter will believe the speil of saving jobs etc etc, and will always vote Labor no matter what.
A few weeks ago the Labor party were preaching 200,000 jobs saved, a week ago it went to 800,000, then 600,000 and today its 500,000. Truth nobody knows how much the stimulas saved us or if it did at all, or was it the mining sector.
A report was out the otherday that shown the major growth in employment wasnt in the building sector, but but but the BER was the savior thats how they explain the waste.
Our school hall here is still in slab stage and has been for weeks, it was a month to get to slab stage, I think max I have seen maybe 5 people on site and that was the concreters, laying the 10mtr by 10 mtre slab, none are locals, Im still amazed at the cost of a 10 x 10mtre hall with a 5 mtre veranda can cost $900,000.
Ps the hall will be too small in about 2 years time going by current growth rates.
This NBN broadband is really bad. I have been listening to IT guys who say the take up rate will be next to nothing because its so expensive. The funny thing is we already have super high speed broadband available, its goes right past my front door but its for the school. The business sector or wealthy can have fibre delivered already so why do we need to spend 43billion on NBN, personally I would rather see a jails and hospitals built, fix crime by puttting scum away and get people into hospitals. Alsao the super clinics is bad, the government is stepping on the toes of the private sector who already operate poly clinics etc. |
Drive it till the wheels fall off
Cheers Paul
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brownp
Marlin
Australia
477 Posts
Member No: #247 |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 07:59:35 AM
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| Actually I think Maynard Keynes said something about even painting rocks would be useful from a stimulus point of view. In the case of Labor's stimulus only a small proportion was 'wasted' and this was probably the price for getting it out quickly. |
Phil |
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Neil
SportsFish
Australia
3807 Posts
Member No: #1 |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 11:25:33 AM
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| quote: | Originally posted by brownp
Actually I think Maynard Keynes said something about even painting rocks would be useful from a stimulus point of view. In the case of Labor's stimulus only a small proportion was 'wasted' and this was probably the price for getting it out quickly.
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What!!
1 Billion to fix up that tosser Garrott's pink batts debacle!!!
repeat that.. that 1000 million to fix their stuff up..
Your not referring to John Maynard Keynes who was a British economist in the 1930's are you?? If so this is 2010,,,huge difference.
Nar no waste ..... |
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Dingo
Team Daylate
Australia
7818 Posts
Member No: #323 |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 3:53:38 PM
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| quote: | Originally posted by brownp
Actually I think Maynard Keynes said something about even painting rocks would be useful from a stimulus point of view. In the case of Labor's stimulus only a small proportion was 'wasted' and this was probably the price for getting it out quickly.
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Well if you want to persist with the reasoning that it was aceptable to waste money so it happened quickly, please do tell why the school whos BER we are involved has been 2 months just to get the slab laid? Sorta blows this do it quick thing out the window. I tell you what was quick and that was pretty much after the fence went up it was reported as 30% compleat, what a joke.
And if you are seriously going to accept that 33% wastage is acceptable then I would suggest you look at your finances.
A $3 billion dollar project that gets canned and $2 Billion and requires $1 billion to fix up, thats not acceptable.
According to the Rawlinsons construction guide ( a regonised estimation tool) hall should cost $1500 per sqm but under the BER it comes in at $3000+ per sqm, thats just ridiculous. The money has been thrown out there very quickly and very little has been returned.
Now while you at the sprooking of the Stimulous package please check where the job increases have occured, if the stimulous is responsible for saving or creating jobs the major increases would be in Construction related industries wouldnt it?
Do the research and look past the spin. |
Drive it till the wheels fall off
Cheers Paul
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brownp
Marlin
Australia
477 Posts
Member No: #247 |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 5:25:16 PM
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| quote: | Originally posted by Neil
| quote: | Originally posted by brownp
Actually I think Maynard Keynes said something about even painting rocks would be useful from a stimulus point of view. In the case of Labor's stimulus only a small proportion was 'wasted' and this was probably the price for getting it out quickly.
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What!!
1 Billion to fix up that tosser Garrott's pink batts debacle!!!
repeat that.. that 1000 million to fix their stuff up..
Your not referring to John Maynard Keynes who was a British economist in the 1930's are you?? If so this is 2010,,,huge difference.
Nar no waste .....
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A billion is a 1000 million, Neil. Yes I was referring to the British economist from the 1930's. With the GFC were were facing another Depression. It was only because of the timely intervention and stimulus provided by governments around the World that we averted one. I had to laugh that someone said that the mining industry saved us. It was only because China had it's own massive stimulus program that demand for our mineral held up! |
Phil |
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Dingo
Team Daylate
Australia
7818 Posts
Member No: #323 |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 8:54:59 PM
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| quote: | Originally posted by brownp
It was only because China had it's own massive stimulus program that demand for our mineral held up!
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So if China didnt prop up its industry would Australia have gone into a recession? |
Drive it till the wheels fall off
Cheers Paul
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